Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

14

Notes to give someone on new generation...fact check and advice...

by notverylikely in

jw
friends

these are my notes on the new generation teaching i am preparing to give to someone.

if anyone here wouldn't mind reading over them and giving them a quick fact check, i would appreciate it.

right now these are just rough talking points for me.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Hey NVL, that's a good start. I agree with Black Sheep--the best way to reason with a JW is to ask questions. That being said, I'm sure there are times when a direct approach works. When you're dealing with JWs, you have to make sure all your facts are bullet-proof. If they find one fact that's wrong, they'll discount your whole line of reasoning.

Russell and group first said end would come in 1871, then 1874, then 1912, then 1914. The year 1914 is calculated using day for a year calculation and 7 times meaning 7 years, so 2520, 607 B.C. to 1914 A.D. is 2520 years. However, this only works if you use years that are 360 days in length. Insight book says "In Prophecy. In prophecy the word “year” is often used in a special sense as the equivalent of 360 days (12 months of 30 days each). (Re 11:2, 3)." If a real year is used, this gets us to 1949 A.D.

Russell didn't say the end would come in 1871 or 1874. Barbour and other Adventists who associated with / influenced Russell pointed to 1874, but Russell didn't. Russell did point to 1874 as the start of the last days (exactly how the JWs now 1914).

Russell and the WTS absolutely did point to 1914 as the end, then 1918, and 1925. These are well-documented. For helpful quotes and cites to WT literature, see http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php. If you're gonna use dates, use those dates. Google Books has scanned copies of a lot of the older publications, including the Studies in the Scriptures series and the "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" booklet. So, if a JW gives you heat about where you got your info (and this is a common diversionary tactic), it's helpful to be familiar with Google Books. Here are a couple of helpful links:

Millions Now Living Will Never Die: http://books.google.com/books?id=V0gMAAAAYAAJ (see pages 88-89 for discussion of 1925)
The Finished Mystery: http://books.google.com/books?id=dDQSOQV2RBIC (page 485 talks about God destroying church members by the millions in 1918)

Regarding the 360-day year, it's interesting that the Society uses 360-day years to calculate the # of years, but then 365/6-day years to count down to 1914. So, here are the logical leaps that you have to make to get to 1914:

You have to agree that, despite what every single historian says, Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC.
You have to agree that Daniel's 7 times prophecy had to be fulfilled twice--even though not one single scripture says so.
You have to agree that the 7 times, which meant 7 years in the first fulfillment, mean something else in the second fulfillment.
You have to agree that the 7 times in the second fulfillment mean 7 years of 360 days each, where each "day" means a year of 365 or 366 days each.

Isn't it all completely clear and "Bible-based"? Do you ever feel STUPID for having believed this nonsense in the first place? Sometimes I do...

723

The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

by theMadJW in

http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

Olin Moyles Ghost

MadJW: "Olin, even CHURCHOIDS see the signs of the Last Days Christ spoke about coming true; it is DATES that usually are off, or wrong."

My response:

And that's supposed to prove WHAT, exactly? If you read a little history, you would realize that "churchoids" have been falsely predicting The End since the inception of Christianity 2000 years ago!! Their track record is just as bad as the Watchtower Society's track record. Talk about "the blind leading the blind!"

Check out this book for a nice overview of Christianity's long, glorious tradition of End-Times nonsense: A History of the End of the World (http://www.amazon.com/History-End-World-Controversial-Civilization/dp/0060816988).

65

Things in the past that show you that your doubts started earlier than you thought

by sabastious in

i was just talking to my wife this morning about underlining or highlighting the wt paragraphs.. when i was 13 years old i would fight with my dad because i refused to highlight the answers.. the reason was because i wanted my comment to be genuine.

i felt that highlighting the "answer" made me lean on just using that as a crutch and not truly putting it in my own words.. i still hold that argument now, and i am 26. the only reason you would ever have to highlight something in a study book would be if you needed to remember it, maybe it is fairly complicated or subtle information that could be easily forgotten.. so many times in the wt the "question" has the same phrase that's in the paragraph!

it's literally like playing connect the dots.. so what i would do is not highlight during the family study.

Olin Moyles Ghost

This is a great thread. When I think back on the matter, my first doubt occurred when I was 6 years old. I was in school (first grade) and one of my classmates had a birthday. His mom brought in cupcakes for the class. I told my teacher that I would need to be excused during the celebration.

The teacher asked me why (she knew I was a JW, so I was surprised she asked why). At that moment, I realized that I didn't have a good answer. My little mind was racing, thinking about the two birthdays in the Bible where people were executed, but it didn't seem logical that God didn't want me to have a cupcake just because 2 people were executed 1000s of years ago.

723

The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

by theMadJW in

http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

Olin Moyles Ghost

MadJW stated: "So, you both think the Catholic Church was backed by God?"

My response:

Thanks for the non-response. The simple fact is that your "worldwide preaching work" argument only works if the Watchtower's "last days" theology is correct. As I recall, you have recognized that the Society's last days/ prophetic interpretation theology is kooky. So, you're basing your argument on quite a flimsy foundation, my friend.

723

The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

by theMadJW in

http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

Olin Moyles Ghost

MadJW stated: "Casper, that preaching was told about the Last Days, not about the rule of the Catholic Chuch in the Dark Ages!"

My response:

Thanks for making my point. Your position (that the "worldwide preaching work" is an identifying mark of "God's organization") depends on today being part the Last Days. Stated another way, if today is not part of the Last Days, then the existence of a "worldwide preaching work" is just as irrelevant now as it was in the 1400s.

I'm well aware that your clergy (the WT Society) teaches that we're in the Last Days that began in 1914. If they're wrong, then the existence of a "worldwide preaching work" is irrelevant.

Hence, my point about the Catholic church in the 1400s. Don't you agree that if someone who, in 1400, figured out that some Catholic teachings were false, should have left the church, even if there was not another worldwide organization to join? Some did so, and were persecuted for it. I think they did the right thing, even though they did not join a big religious organization with a "worldwide preaching work." Why should today be any different?

723

The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

by theMadJW in

http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

Olin Moyles Ghost

MadJW stated: "So, if all groups ARE flawed, what about the one Jesus said would be preaching the Good News of the KINGDOM world wide?"

My response:

Who was the group that was preaching the good news of the kingdom worldwide in 1600? In 1500? In 1400? In 1300? etc... According to the Witnesses, nobody was, right? So who are we to say that somebody is necessarily doing it now?

Sure, there are lots of groups that are preaching various things worldwide--for example, the Mormons preach the Bible + book of Mormon; evangelicals preach their gospel, Catholics teach their gospel, JWs teach their gospel, etc. They all teach something different and they are all wacky and crazy in my humble opinion.

So, really the Witness argument is this: nobody else is teaching the Witness/Watchtower gospel worldwide. Well, duh! Setting aside the fact that the Witness/Watchtower group is not really worldwide (China, N. Korea, most Muslim countries, most of India, etc...), this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course nobody else is spreading the Watchtower gospel except the Watchtower. It proves nothing!

I can picture MadJW back in the 1400s as a Catholic, defending the Catholic church: "Who else is preaching the gospel worldwide--just us Catholics, right? Why are you heretics turning your back on the Church. Sure, the Church has its problems, but nobody else is preaching the gospel worldwide!"

42

Most annoying quotes you are going to hear from JW's

by XPeterX in

jw
friends

something like: "would jesus do that/go there?

" i tell them: "would he own a luxurious bmw or mercendes?".

what are some quotes/expressions invented by jw's that really pissed you off?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

"he's a brother"

"worldly"

"fortunate" (as if that's completely different from "lucky")

"spiritual" / "spiritually strong" / "spiritually weak"

"the truth"

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Witnesses (like other Christian faiths) pick and choose which parts of the Bible they follow. For example, they don't spend a lot of time on verses like this.

James 1:27 (New International Version)

27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Matthew 19:21

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 18:22

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

Olin Moyles Ghost

I reject the premise of the statement. First, the so-called "good news" from the WTS is that Jesus has been "invisibly present" since 1914 and will bring destruction to this system "any day now." In other words, the core Watchtower message is to "cry wolf" for 130 years. They were wrong 130 years ago, and they're wrong today.

Second, the WTS is not preaching the so-called "good news" worldwide. There are billions of people (primarily Muslims, Chinese, North Koreans, etc.) who have never heard of the Witnesses or their "good news."

When confronted with these inconvenient facts, some JWs try to deflect the issue by asking "if not us, then who?" Again, the premise is faulty. Think about it this way: who was "preaching the good news worldwide" in 1600? Nobody, right? So, what makes 2010 any different? In other words, under Watchtower theology, there must be some group preaching the good news in the Last Days. So, conversely, if these aren't the Last Days, then there doesn't have to be somebody preaching the good news--even under Watchtower theology.

Thus, just like everything else in Watchtower-land, it always goes back to 1914. If 1914 is wrong (which it clearly is, as shown by each passing day), then the whole "preaching the good news worldwide" canard goes away.

This is just another example of the shaky house of cards that Watchtower/JW theology is based on. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to defend this silliness. They are going to die disappointed, just like all the JWs and other suckers who fell for end-times hucksters before them.

Oh well, I guess PT Barnum was right. There's a sucker born every minute. Religious leaders (including the WTS) are counting on it.

36

JW doctrines that annoyed or troubled you

by Luo bou to in

jw
friends

bloodguilt a doctrine that really annoyed me when i was in.

like i was responsible for who jehovah destroyed..

Olin Moyles Ghost

No marriage for those resurrected. Never made sense to me, or anyone I know for that matter. Even the most hardcore dub, finds this teaching hard to accept.

The problem is that's a clear Bible teaching. Read the account where the Pharisees ask Jesus about the woman with 7 husbands who die in sequence. Jesus plainly states that in the resurrection, the resurrected don't marry because they're like the angels in heaven.

Some try to rationalize this and say Jesus was only talking about the heavenly class. But that can't be right because the hypothetical situation they were discussing all involved people who died before Jesus was resurrected--thus, under JW doctrine they could not have the heavenly hope. Therefore, under JW doctrine, there is no way that resurrected people will be able to marry or have kids.

Imagine the JW paradise--a few million normal people and BILLIONS of ASEXUAL resurrected people. Creepy, huh?